Should hoarding be banned from book sales?
I received this note from Sandra Adamson at Acquired Books and I think it makes a great editorial:
What do you think?
I went to four library sales this weekend, and at every sale there were a couple of teams hoarding all the books.Thanks, Sandra, I couldn't agree more. I recently raised this on BookThink and posed the question "Will Technology Kill the FOL Sale?" My point was that it's gotten a lot worse out there because of scanners, but the major culprit is simply bad behavior by some dealers who are intent on hogging all the books.
I think it is high time that we as an online bookselling group begin together to make a united effort to have hoarding banned from booksales.
It is bad enough that some sellers have access to the books before the sales and the sales themselves have been thoroughly picked over, we then have to deal with rude sellers who now have teams and take practically all the books of the shelves/tables.
They are not buying all of them they just want to look through them at their convenience in a corner and removed them so no one else can have access to the books before they can decide if they want the book or not.
The library sales are not private sales and some people pay to get in a preview sale!
If you take a book from a shelve/table you should buy it PERIOD!!!
No taking books and putting them aside or under tables and throwing tarps/blankets on top unless you are definitely going to buy them!
I think sellers should contact their libraries and start asking to ban hoarding. If you have a scanner stand at the tables and scan the books in place and put the books in your bag.
The sales are becoming a place of rudeness and chaos. Is this the image we want the public to have about booksellers in the community??
I would love to see a letter posted here that seller could paste and copy and send to all their local libraries asking to ban hoarding just like pushing for a legislative bill, there is power in numbers!
What do really think about this epidemic?
What do you think?
Labels: book sales, library sales, technology
posted by Steve Weber at 6/19/2007
26 Comments:
I *completely* agree with the Sandra's letter.
However, Steve, the title of your post on BookThink is misleading: hoarding has little to do with technology. There is absolutely no reason to ban electronic devices; it's hoarding that should be banned.
Hoarding is bad behavior, period, but it is linked to technology; as a rule, you generally don't see people without scanners engaging in it. Some library sales have even banned scanners. Aside from the rude behaviors of their users, I don't really mind scanners: someone who doesn't know enough about books is wasting valuable time scanning while I am scouting the true gems without ISBNs! But tjhe hoarding behavior ruins it for everyone!
Hoarding and obnoxious bookdealers are making it harder for everyone. I have been to many booksales where the staff clearly dislikes bookdealers. Their perception is that bookdealers hoard the books, pick over the best at their convenience, leave a mess for the staff to clean up and then make a mint off of their finds. I have even taken to not identifying myself as a bookdealer, but as a teacher (which I am also), just so I can be treated with a little respect and help at the sales. I always leave the area cleaner than when I found it, reshelving books or sometimes even organizing titles (yes, I am a little compulsive, but when you love books, it is hard to see them treated poorly). Book hoarding should be banned. If you don't know a good book when you see it, leave it to the rest of us who do! And leave your massive carts that block up the aisles at home while you are at it!
Kim
I couldn't agree more with Kim & think she/he hit the nail on the head: hoarders don't love books, they just see dollar signs...they have no appreciation for & don't care about what makes a particular book valuable...I really wish they'd go find something else to make a quick buck off of & leave books to those of us who know & love them.
All hoarding should be banned. However, hoarding has been going on for a long time. Even before scanners and cell phone look up. All book dealers before scanners weren't saints and I've noticed the same rude behavior then as now. It's just more noticeable now because there are more people doing it. Why are there more people doing it? Technology and ease of entry into the marketplace! Any idiot with a cell phone or scanner can become a book dealer. I was at a sale that recently banned scanning and cell phones. When the person next to me realized this, she asked me "How do we know what to buy?" I told her that you just have to use your brain. She then gave me that "deer in the headlights look" of fear and bewilderment. Of course I noticed her cheating during the sale. Banning electronic look up will return book dealing to real book dealers not just dumba$$es with a cell phone and an internet connection.
Yes, we need to stop the hoarders. Unfortunately good people become hoarders because they have to keep up with the ones that started hording. If we just sit around being nice guys we end up going home with nothing.
Hurrah! I've found kindred spirits who are also alarmed and embarrassed by rude bookdealers. This past weekend, I experienced the worst of the worst. A guy who not only was a rude bookdealer, but SHOUTED ISBN numbers into a cell phone to have a hapless person,whom he constantly chided, look the numbers up on a computer on the other end. Dirty glances were shot back and forth by all the other patrons.
I just minded my own business, and I do have to admit that I quietly looked up a handful of books myself. The majority I didn't because I knew they were winners. I reshelved any books I decided against. I also paid more for my books than was asked for, because I knew I had some real gems.
Of course, this "bookdealer" became fascinated with my choices, and what I was doing with my PDA, and tried to strike up a conversation. I ignored him as best I could. He's the sort that won't be around for long. He wastes too much time, doesn't really know what he's looking for, and his people skills will doom him.
As for the ban...I think the best system, and ENFORCEMENT I've seen, was in Napa, CA. Their rule: if it goes into your bag or box, IT IS SOLD!! Of course, there were those who tried to cheat. I thank the volunteer who strode over to the cheaters, and informed them there was no need to look anything up, as all their books were already purchased. One woman in particular whined: "I don't have enough money to buy all of these books!" Hopefully, next time her embarrassment will keep her humble. That's the method I would like to see: If it goes in your bag or box...it is sold.
There are too many problems with trying to ban hoarding. Let’s begin with the number of dealers. The sales I go to frequently have more than 300 dealers to start with at the beginning of the sale. There is no possible way for the libraries to monitor that many people and enforce any hoarding laws.
Another point is the actual libraries. I see the dealers complaining but the libraries don’t seem that concerned. So I doubt they will change anything unless THEY want to.
I think this is also a matter of perspective. Joe citizen that sees you with one box may consider that hoarding. So would that be fair to ban any type of box?
While we are banning obnoxious people from the book sales, don't forget to expel those annoying young mothers who insist on showing up at the get-go, pushing aisle-blocking strollers and dragging along several tots you almost trip over.
In fact, it may be best to ban all civilians during the first hour or so of a book sale, and let only certified dealers in, then watch them scramble around and elbow one another for advantage. The civilians only get in the way, and are in less of a hurry, after all. They can buy from the dealers later on, at proper retail prices.
While we are at it, I demand that all the rows of tables be spaced widely, so that we overstuffed buyers can edge past one another with ease. Most book sales I know of try to jam too many books and too many tables into too small a space.
I use a scanner, and I have to tell you - it's much faster for me to just scan the book where it is instead of gathering up a bunch, carrying them off, and then scanning them. It is also way easier for me to leave books shelved, since I only need to see 2 inches of the corner of the book to see the barcode - as opposed to someone who needs to remove the book *completely* from the shelf to see the whole front.
So don't tell me that "technology is linked to hoarding". Technology facilitates fast decisions. I go through the books fast, without delaying anyone, and leave them just as they were - or better. Compare that to the other dealers I see, who pull the book out and just throw it someplace, or hoard a whole bunch because they need way more time than me to make their decisions.
As long as I am allowed to use my scanner, you'll never see me hoarding, that's for sure.
And to all of you "I need to thumb through the book" people: put that book back the way it was! It's hard for me to scan after you've made a chaotic mound out of a table. And don't hoard! I am still faster than you; you just spoil the experience for everyone else.
There are many different types of booksellers on this site. I am a brick and mortar old-timer.Unlike most of the new work out of your home/garage/barn, or even backyard storage unit folks, I have massive overhead. So, I HAVE to get some decent stock or I am out.
As the years have gone on, and more and more folks are in the book business, I have had to move faster, grab quicker, and just plain keep going when my eyes sting, or I have driven to too many this week... or I end up with literally nothing that makes more than a few dollars. Fortunately, I have a place to sell 'common stock.'
Each year I have less and less valuable stuff and as an 8 year open shoppe 'veteran,' and twenty eight year scout for other dealers, I am probably at the top of my game (whatever that means anymore). But as a middle-aged dealer, I am also not as tech savy, and have no scanner, even though I sell on numerous sites.
I put my books under a sold sheet, and when I am through, I go through and do the sniff test, look to see if there is any underlining/highlighting, and finally, if the book is complete (last night I found a book with a third of it torn out!). I also look to see what the book is, publication date, first editions, etc. You can't do this without lifting the book, and then setting it back. I return the books I don't take to their original subject area, and often organize what has been messed up. Still, I get 'boxed out' by massive amounts of family members. I call this the herd, and like a herd of cattle, you can get squashed, and in the crowd, have them go through your stuff.
I have had books grabbed from my hands and then, later find them returned to another department. It's definitely a new world in bookselling! And with folks who are not 'book lovers' but looking for a way to supplement their incomes, it is never going to be the way it was, folks. We have to get use to it. No union for us. Libraries hate us, civilians hate us more, and if the economy doesn't improve to filter those who aren't in it for anything more than the $$$, it will only get worse. I figure I can't hang on with a real store much longer.
Here is where I raise most of your blood pressures: I pray that the government gets involved and everyone has to file a business license. THAT will filter out those that aren't able.
Debbie K.
Sure, technology is linked to hoarding, but a more accurate correlation is that inconsiderate & rude people are linked to hoarding. There were "sheet on the table" people, crowders, blockers, and elbowers before there were scanners. Scanning just another opportunity for rude & selfish behavior to prevail - but it doesn't have to be.
While scanning certainly can contribute to hoarding behavior, it is even more tiresome for folks punching in numbers on a cell phone, let alone schmucks calling others to lookup from their home/business for them.
IMHO, rude & indecisive folks that know even less about books than they know about scanning are the problem. Regardless of lookup strategies, hoarders are indecisive and lack confidence in what they are doing.
For what it's worth, I started out making educated guesses - and made a lot of poor decisions - I chalk it up to learning the field. Then I got a Palm Treo, CMOS scan card, and an internet-based lookup subscription. With slow cell data speeds, I started piling & scanning 10 books or so at a time - hoarding - in order to get "all the good books" that I could.
Not only was this rude, indecisive, and boorish, it was also very inefficient. I began reading the buzz about the database lookups with only a PDA & no internet connection.
I traded my Treo for an Ipaq, my CMOS scanner for a laser scan card, and switched to a DB service. Now I stay at the tables, and what goes into my box/bag goes home with me. No more hoarding & then reshelving, no having to scan stacks at a time, and no more monthly fee for wireless internet access, just the DB fee & initial outlay for equipment.
Now at FOL sales & thrifts, I spot an interesting book, scan it, and either put the book back on the shelf/table or into my cart/box. That's it.
No matter how much I know about older, pre-ISBN books (which I buy based on knowledge & instinct), scanning still makes good business sense with the volatility of cheap, new-used book prices that are too numerous to keep up with.
Tech seems to enable the (m)asses, but the database tech is a boon both for scanners/sellers as well as other patrons of booksales as hoarding is unnecessary, database scanning is a more efficient use of time & energy, and shopping FOL sales are smoother.
In my experience the people with scanners are less likely to hoard. There are several sellers who are regulars at most of the local sales who hoard several large boxes of books, then look up the titles in these big black binders they carry around. Now, they're experienced enough that anything they grab is likely to be promising, but they end up putting a lot back.
Most of the people I see with scanners scan at the table.
I agree with the others that technology isn't the problem. It's greed.
AMEN to that: "it's greed that is the problem"...I try to get to the FOL sales early, but I have moved to a new state, and I'm not yet familiar with the area. Most of the time, I am on time, or a little late. I feel my heart beating, as I see many folks ahead of me. "There is enough for all of us" is my mantra.
I have always come away with many good buys. Where I used to live, my heart would beat with excitement and anticipation, but I would feel low, because I knew that squabbles, grabbing, and rudeness would also be things I would have to face as a bookseller finding stock at an FOL sale.
I don't want to sound hokey, but I really do think life would be better for all of us, if we try to band together, rather than treat eachother as enemies.
Frankly, I do feel the "scanners" will be short-lived. The more of them there are...the lower the prices. Most of them are just looking for a quick buck, and they will drop the trade when the going gets tough.
What gets me through the rough days and months is my love of books. Folks that just pull out a few inches of a book...enough to scan the barcode...how sad!
Speaking of a new breed of booksellers, while volunteering at our last county FOL sale I noticed a lady and 7/8 yr old boy with notebooks. They were writing down ISBNs but not pulling any books, and after awhile they disappeared without buying anything.
20-30 minutes later they were back checking books against their lists and pulling very few, writing down more numbers. They disappeared again -- no buying. (Patrons can leave a marked box in a corner so they don't have to carry a pile, etc., as long as we have room in the area and they buy their accumulated stack.)
Going elsewhere in the library, I passed the computers -- and there was the lady, typing in an Amazon description window. So it was understandable (?!!) on her third trip into the sale when she exclaimed "you all keep rearranging everything and I can't find the books I'm looking for!"
She spent more than two hours on this system before checking out, and she bought less than an armful of titles. Admittedly, my definition of an "armful" probably isn't standard, but still...
Debbie, I like your idea. I've been doing this racket for a few years - about seven, part-time, and I do love books. I'm at the point where I primarily look at FOL first for books I want to own. It is a sideline business for me, only because I enjoy books and have thousands of them in my personal collection. I run another business full time.
Like you, I also pull books that I think I want to buy, then check for any problems. I only put them back if there's a major problem, on the same shelf where they belong.
I have had people elbow me, reach over me, cut in line and generally behave badly at FOL sales. Like Gargoyle, methinks the scanner/cell phone user miss the point. But the people who work at FOL sales are about par with some of the rude sellers. I hope you'll cover how this bad behavior, esp. by teams, is shaping the attitude of staff towards anyone who may be a book dealer. No one should have to, as Kim describes, pretend to be a teacher so that they will escape scorn. We're helping fund these libraries, and our patrons are their patrons!
At a sale two years ago, I wanted to buy a business reference work in multiple volumes. The librarian at the checkout refused to sell it to me because I could not find the seventh piece. It turns out she was one of the people running the sale.
She was incredibly rude, and seemed downright disgusted with me. You'd think I had just mugged her grandmother. She seemed, well ... furious... as if I was trying to "get away with something".
I desperately wanted this for my business - not to resell, but to keep. I explained that I could not find this last piece, and that it appeared complete from the spines. Perhaps there had been a mistake? I offered to pay full price for what was on hand. She got even angrier and refused to sell it. "You have to have all the pieces or we won't sell it to you!" (I don't know why the pieces weren't all banded together or shelved so that they would not be separated.)
I asked if someone could help me, since she was insistent that she would not sell it to me otherwise, and that I could show them the table where the others were found, and she refused brusquely, stomping away. I was embarrassed and quietly asked another FOL person if I could put my books to the side while I went to look for this mystery piece. I can see the point of not wanting to have an "orphan" but her behavior was just... so irrational.
I walked back and combed back over every aisle, finally coming up with a flimsy, fifty page softcover update. (The rest of the collection was hardcover). It had been misshelved and covered with books that someone else had "dumped". I then returned to the line and waited all over again for my turn. When I checked out more than half an hour later, I commented where the book had been found, and how I could have been saved many minutes of searching if someone had helped me. She sniped at me that she had already helped me, and "regretted" that she had been "nice enough" to check the back room. If you call that manifest hatred being "nice"... wow. It's been maybe two years, and I'm still surprised that she would take out her anger (presumably at rude dealers) so inappropriately. It's a book sale. The point is to sell books, right?
The only thing I can figure is that some of these librarians are very angry about the shift in technology and the playing field... my friends who are librarians tell me that this is happening among people in traditional reference departments, who are not happy with the new emphasis on multimedia and databases. Some of them are even being forced to accept covered drinks, or areas for people to bring laptops and do "active" study (i.e. not quiet). They can't focus on the bright side, which is that obviously, people are doing a lot of reading and utilizing much more information than they used to.
I don't like hording either but find myself almost having to do so in order to get any books. I don't scan as I go through and yes, I've been doing this for over 6 years now and know a little about how to select books, but I still check them before purchasing. Otherwise I a) spend too much money on books I can't use and b) have to now dispose of the books I can't use. Not sure what the solution is. I agree, people have been becoming more and more rude. In order to stay competitive, you almost have to participate in the inital free-for-all or you are left with nothing.
As for the idiot screaming ISBN numbers into a phone, (I've observed him as well during several sales), I have one suggestions: GET A SCANNER or phone so YOU can scan in a corner without disrupting everyone around!
As for those self-confessed "book lovers" who truly appreciate and love those books at each sale, give me a break, I know you, too, sell the books, for profit. So no need for the high horse. We are all doing the same thing.
Hoarding is rude, yes, but aside from giving a few dirty looks, what can the bookseller community do about it? I almost completely stopped going to library sales because they started giving me anxiety. I don't see the same type of behavior at rummage sales, thrift stores (well, sort of, but not every day) or garage sales. I think people would look at these panicked book dealers funny if they threw a tarp over all the paperbacks on their front lawn....
If I do go to a FOL sale, it'll be after all those guys are gone. Then I just stock up on a bunch of valuable titles printed before 1971.
Something actually just came up on the Amazon boards about this topic. Apparently, and I don't know how common this is, a FOL in Hendersonville, NC banned the use of scanners at their most recent sale. Ray McKezie-Wilson, the board president, said 1.) hoarders presented a fire hazard; 2.) hoarding resulted in lost sales and 3.) FOL staff had to work harder to reshelve the unwanted books after scanners departed.
You can check out the official newsletter in pdf format here:
http://www.henderson.lib.nc.us/hcpl_friends.html
Doesn't say whether cell phones are allowed though...
My money says within two years they will bring back the scanning at the hendersonville sale.
The purpose of the FOL is to raise to money. You take away scanners and such and sales will fall fast.
Dont get me wrong, I dont have to use a scanner and would gladly welcome a decrease in dealers at sales.
But the FOL will see a huge decline in $$$$ and will bring them back.
Here is the new protocol I have seen evolving at some of the larger book sales that I attend:
The aggressive dealers, scanners, hoarders, rush to the tables (sometimes in tag teams) and fill their boxes quickly, piling them up on handcarts while the rest of us methodically pick up interesting titles that they, in their haste, have missed. The rush-rush boys then adjourn to a corner, or to the dealers' room, to check and sort through the piles that they have deprived the rest of us from viewing. We continue to eyeball and mentally judge the stock left on the tables, selecting nuggets here and there. After about an hour, the "hares" have completed their task and leave, abandoning piles of goodies it turns out they really didn't want, after all. The hoarded books trickle back to the sale tables, and for those of us "tortoises" who remain, Part Two begins: the fun of viewing and choosing starts all over again.
--Hardshell
Wow such vehemence ("give me a break, I know you, too, sell the books, for profit. So no need for the high horse. We are all doing the same thing") about people professing to love books.
Give *me* a break. No one brought the issue of passion up to be on a "high horse".
True, most people agree that there's a difference between someone who does something solely for profit, and someone who has a passion for the same work -- the person who has a passion is often willing to take less money. That's always been an aspect of the book business, and why it was undercapitalized for so long, just like publishing.
There's an essential tug of war between people who see the profit potential, and those who are more into the ephemeral stuff like "turning someone onto a good book". It's always going to be there, just like in Hollywood or education or half a dozen other places.
Methinks you protest too much, anonymous. If you don't share the passion, okay. That doesn't mean someone describing their love for books is full of BS and needs to be taken down a notch. Why seek to create so many enemies, in a world where everyone has their beloved hobbies and if they're lucky, a job they gush about?
If you feel so prickly about it, maybe you should find something else to sell.
The purpose of the FOL is to raise to money. You take away scanners and such and sales will fall fast.
Bullcrap. Everyone pays the same price at the sale. If all the good stuff is snapped up, right away, the sale is over, and fewer folks got the opportunity to get what they may find interesting. We have NEVER had booksales for the benefit of booksellers. If you want to make money off of us, maybe we should make more money off of you.
Or maybe we will just scan it first.
How many non-bookselling patrons do you think enjoy the constant "cha-ching" that they hear at the FOL booksales these days?
The FOL staff consists of many volunteers, why should they have to work so hard to re-shelve all those books that the bookscanners have made a mess out of. That is a lot of unpaid volunteer time, its not fair to the volunteers and not fair to the community.
If you want to scan books, fine, but don't hoard them and don't dump the unwanted books - take the time to re-shelve what you took out. That is just common courtesy, even my child knows this.
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